Leslie: Please introduce yourselves and tell us about your job role at Firewalk Studios.

Leif:

As Head of Design at Firewalk, my job is to help people on my team to find the best version of their work that works for the player. Often I spend a lot of time talking to people about how players feel and react to their work  and that helps people do their jobs more effectively. I also help the teams figure out creative processes and ways to talk about problems in a way that’s inspiring and constructive.

Pam:

Hi, I’m Pam Pescatello. I’m the marketing operations lead for Firewalk studio, so my role fills a few different responsibilities: One, I work very closely with our publisher, Sony, but I also work to build our marketing campaigns and how we position and bring a new product to the market for players.  Another part of my role is to help us brand and establish the Firewalk Studio culture.  My role is similar to Leif’s role in that I do a lot of listening and talking to people, whether they are the player or the developers at the studio, to understand how they view the culture they’re creating  for players. After asking players “What do you love?” and “How do you respond to this type of messaging,”  “What about the game is really exciting for you,”  I work to find a way to extrapolate human truths. No matter who I’m working with I try to distill things down to just a few words so even if someone who knows nothing about us they can immediately see  what we are about, so it’s a very fun and rewarding job to say the least.

Leslie: What inspired you to mentor our pre-apprenticeship students?

Leif:  I see it as an obligation in the sense that my career has been really good to me and very rewarding.  I guess I find it selfish to only spend time basking in the fruits of that success without sharing what you’ve learned. In general, if you figure something out that works well for you and you have insights that can benefit other people, whether it be students or people looking to make a career change, it’s good to help!  I also think that there are a lot benefits to this track that aren’t necessarily confined to a career. In general, the things I have learned from developing games about helping people reach way beyond my career.  I have  friends who work in other industries that are stable but less personally rewarding.  They ask me questions about life and hobbies, and how do you build something that you’re proud of?  Hypothetically, if game development is just a hobby, it’s still going to be something that’s really rewarding, but if you can make it your career and there are opportunities you didn’t know about, that’s fantastic!  

Leslie: So mentoring has resulted in self-reflection as well?

Leif: That’s 10,000% true, I still learn from mentoring and I learn from managing, and I also find that just trying to find the words to explain things is shockingly difficult!

Pam:  Whenever you start working in the corporate world or get involved in any sort of group you unfortunately will meet people who want to hold things really close and not share how they made it or say “Here’s how I got here.”  So when there are opportunities to take all of the knowledge and experience I’ve gained and share that with others, particularly students who are in high school, I’m really happy to do it.  I remember all of the worries and fears teens go through, and yeah, I know I’m a millennial and they’re Gen Z, but all those things are still the same, it doesn’t matter what generation you come from. To me, the idea of having someone come from the gaming industry to talk to me when I was a teen would probably have been a highlight of my high school experience. I would remember that moment; having an adult who’s not my teacher or parents come in and share their thoughts and real-world insights would have had an impact. I think kids get a very filtered version of the world and they need to be prepared for the realities that they are going to face when they graduate from high school.  So yes, mentoring creates a way we can do that in an approachable setting. For me it’s also about how can I make things easier for the young people coming up filling my shoes, filling Leif’s shoes?  

If I can make it easier for anybody, particularly young women coming into a field like this, I want to be as supportive as possible no matter what their background might be.  It’s important to make the field as accessible as possible because there is no one person that’s right for this type of job, and it’s important to let youth,  particularly kids in high school who are dealing a lot with identity issues like who am I, what do I want to do, where do I fit in, know that they can find a job role that will embrace, appreciate, and celebrate their differences and welcome them into the work they’re there to do. That’s why I do this and am inspired to be involved and give back as much as I can. 

Another thing to add in there, and I know this is happening more in Silicon Valley, but I think when people think of mentors they think of a 20 year veteran in whatever industry helping out a junior who is maybe 4 or  5 years into their career, and now you’re seeing those 20 year veterans having mentors who are juniors with 4 or 5 years  offering  a new perspective  and sharing  how their generation is thinking about things.

They share with older veterans how they interact with and see the world. And so if I am a company looking for ways to be involved, talking to these students is a huge opportunity to gain insight in not only the youth culture, but also a diverse background of students and their families and what they are capable of bringing to the table.  It benefits and companies in the long run to talk to all sorts of people. 

Leslie: Did you have anyone that mentored you on your career path or in school that inspired you in the direction you’re in now?

Pam: There have been mentors along the way that stayed with me throughout my entire career path and then there have been some who came at different stages, but I had a former boss when I first started at Activision who was the first boss that just sat down with me and gave me real feedback. Prior to that I had never had reviews or any forum to ask “Hey, am I doing good work?” and that to me was probably the most valuable thing – to have a space where I had a mentor who talked openly and honestly about great things I can do and continue doing, and where my opportunities to get better are. He also addressed my aspirations and goals and helped me to understand that there are actually many ways to get wherever you are trying to go. Learning to be flexible and open has really helped my mentality, so whenever I come to roadblocks or disappointments or even successes, I don’t feel discouraged or think, oh this is it, I made it, because I know that there is always another way to keep moving forward.  While my Activision boss Steve was very instrumental as a mentor, I’ve also found that there can be a team of people who are like mentors, or they may be more like a coach than a mentor, but they are there to help you see the bigger picture.  You can have different mentors at different times and stages of your life and hopefully that will continue to be the truth of your path moving forward.

Leif: Yeah, honestly that’s a tough question. I had to think back on who was the most impactful, and I think it was a group of Engineers on my first design job because that was when I was given the baton of creative powers.  Immediately you want to chase every shiny idea or justify random creative instincts.  If you find something interesting you will try and justify it in really strange ways, and I was kind of surprised at first that they stopped me so often and asked me to double check my thinking and to ask myself what’s really important?  Is there a better way we could be thinking about this problem or this solution?  At first I thought it was kind of like a power thing since I was junior and they were sort of showing me that they have control, but of course I was 10,000% wrong. They were really helping me get to where I really needed to be and make sure I was asking the right questions.  The reason they were really firm was because they believed in me and so spent that extra time with me; and honestly that’s the stuff I use to this day.

Leslie: Can you define the difference between a coach and a mentor?

Pam: Yeah, I guess I can use some sports analogies since I played a bunch growing up. I look at a coach as someone who’s there frequently seeing incremental improvements and giving you feedback in real time.  I think a lot of the time your boss ends up being the coach because they are in it with you. A mentor can be someone in the same field as you, but they are not directly in your day-to-day work life and so you’re likely meeting with them once a week or once a month and sharing the challenges that you are facing.  They are able to offer an objective perspective because they aren’t invested the same way a coach would.  The difference between the two is that a coach is going to be invested and benefit from your success, where as a mentor is really there just help you push yourself forward and be successful on your own merits.

 Leif:  I agree. I think you rely on your coach to give you structure and you rely on your mentor to give you perspective. You can also rely on your coach to give you perspective but it’s less important.  I think that the difference between a good coach and an okay coach is that a good coach really helps , you go that extra step of not just pointing out what is not working, or what you’re not seeing, but actively helping change the way you approach your work or problems ,or even your life, so while if you brought in a new coach you probably trust that the structure they are giving you will work to your benefit ,but for a mentor you generally have to understand their perspective to get value out of it because if you don’t, they aren’t going to step in and take over. I think overall the structure of it is an important piece.

Leslie: What’s has the highlight been for you in mentoring the CFA students?

Pam: The highlight for me is looking at the projects they are working on, but also being a part of the mentorship and seeing the smart, sharp questions that came from the students because they see the world differently from us.  It’s so refreshing and insightful to see what that lens looks like for them, and so what I ended up learning from the students is that in this industry, even though you’re in it for so long you can kind of get bogged down, when you see someone come into it for the first time with fresh, optimistic eyes  it helps you to see that there is still so much excitement to hold on to.  It helps me to remember how fortunate we are to work in this industry and this space and to never take it for granted. These students can’t wait to be in a job role like this!  It teaches me to always keep perspective that whenever things are tough, or you’re working on a hard problem, or maybe you’re working with someone that you don’t get along, remember that hey, I get to make video games!   I wake up and get to do that!  It was enlightening to see that excitement and enthusiasm and remember I still have that same excitement.

Leif: Yeah, I completely agree. I think my highlight, and what surprised me most, was the teamwork. The vibe I got from your students was much more mature than I was at that age. I thought that they were genuinely thoughtful towards each other and that really came through; that’s as important as anything else, possibly even more so. But like Pam, my highlight was also the quality of the questions, their engagement, and how deep they were into thinking about their problems and their code. My takeaway is that anytime I talk to someone who’s not in my generation about games I always feel like I learn a little something. It’s hard to put into words, but it means something different to them than it does to me for a lot of reasons, and that always makes my day. It gives me a different perspective.

Pam: I could talk about all the positive things about gaming on end, like how it helps kids who feel different have a way to connect and make friends, it’s this huge means of connection.  Video games have the ability to make a huge, positive impact; to take it a step further, we have a platform to address social causes, political issues. I’m excited for Gen Z because they are so in tune with what’s happening around us and being self-advocates, so I’m excited to see what they are going to do. 

Leslie: What feedback do you have for our students working on “serious game” projects?

Leif: First don’t skip past your goals – if your goal is to say something about climate change for people playing the game, try not to get distracted from your goals because it’s easy to do. Even in life that’s true, just always try to evaluate what you’re doing against your goal; you might find that your goal is wrong or that you’re drifting from it. 

My second piece of advice is don’t underestimate the power of empathy. Like a huge part of design is trying to understand how something makes someone feel, and if they have an interesting reaction or you have an interesting reaction about how you feel about your own work, often just trying to process that and look at it through the right lens, or set of lenses, to make sure that you’re not moving too fast is important.  We often find that the work we are doing can create surprising reactions or lack of emotions for interesting reasons. No matter how good you are, you will always be surprised by people’s reactions.

 And then my last bit is don’t underestimate the value of being derivative and using your point of reference, like other people who have done a bunch of fantastic work or sometimes less than fantastic work. If you can learn lessons from other people’s successes and mistakes, it’s going to save you thousands of hours because it literally took them thousands of hours for to get that. Sometimes it feels more exciting to branch out on your own path and prove something new from the ground up, but it’s really hard and often it’s better if you’re just starting out to learn from previous work even if you’re scared it’s not going to feel different enough. It’s healthy to start from that place.

Pam: Yeah, I have a very different perspective on it, mostly because Leif lives it day to day and knows how to come up with designs and iterate, so I don’t want to step into his lane.  I think for me the only thing I would be looking for whenever I’m evaluating whatever the students are making is to ask them “Do you know who you’re making this game for?”  I think sometimes in this industry we see a lot of studios that will make games for a small group of people at the studio and they’re not think about the ultimate end user, which is the player. So if you’re not making the game for the player that’s going to experience this, you’re going to have a really hard hill to climb because it’s not going to be a fun experience. I go back to Leif’s main point, like what are you making, why is it going to be fun, and add who are you making it for, and why does this game need to exist?

Leif: Yeah, you touched on something I wish I said.  Some of the best developers I know fail at their first try and learn more from mistakes. They fail faster and are more observant. Sometimes a failed experiment is more successful than a successful one, and it’s hard to learn that way, but it works.

Leslie: Leif would you say you use a project approach in game design?

Leif: We do, as a production staff we absolutely do, and they take it very seriously. There is a circle though which is raw design craft where some project management principles don’t apply, but that’s kind of an exception.  Overall, I would say yes, it’s critical, especially when trying to make something at scale.

At a very high level, as a major process we have phases of development;  for our styled project we have concept incubation and then pre-production where we prove our concept as viable and our tools are ready to make what we are trying to make at scale, and then we have production, where we take what we’ve proven in the laboratory and put it in the factory, make the most of it, and then build the content that speaks to the best version of our game.  Then we have postproduction where we make a long number of curated changes, we bump, fix, and then make sure it’s pretty stable.  

Teams that process each of those phases have different organizational challenges and patterns, and the hat that you wear and the way you think about the work changes because when you’re in the laboratory you need to think like a scientist, and when you’re in factory you need to be thinking like a craftsperson. So as you switch between those phases different disciplines have to change how their rhythms work and how they approach it, and that’s true for the producers as well. 

Project managing a lab vs a factory is two different beasts, and once you ship the game you have to adapt. To make that more valuable for your students it’s going to feel like they are doing a lot of laboratory work, so there’s not much left once they have it shiny, but often it’s the factory work that’s the real work. It’s a lot easier in your laboratory to make it shiny than it is to actually run an efficient factory that makes the most out of it, it’s just not intuitive.  Making the most of the idea is the hard work. 

Leslie: Would you recommend mentoring to coworkers and what advice would you share with them?

Pam: I would say to remember to put yourself in the shoes of these students and remember what it was like to be 17 or 18 years old. Remember they haven’t been in the industry, so they don’t know all the acronyms, but they are smart so don’t talk down to them; just remember where they are.  Think about what’s the most important thing for them to see at this age, like working as a team, thinking about how your role makes an impact on your partner’s role and how it all starts to ladder up to a bigger picture, and that’s the social aspect which is just as big as learning the technical skills. And then as far as mentoring at work internally vs students, honestly it’s really similar. When I’ve mentored internally it’s been more one on one vs a kind of instructor class set up and the piece I like about one on one mentoring is that you get a chance to learn the personal goals and what drives an individual to give the job the heart that’s going to  that’s going to help them,  The last thing I want to do is come in and spout advice that’s not relevant to students so they’re not really listening to you; that’s not valuable at all.  My role it to hear and see what is it that you need and I’m going to give you my perspective and my advice tailored to you, not my experience projected onto you.  One important thing about mentoring students is getting to know them a little bit better and hearing them talk and getting to see them present their projects.  That kind of helps bring out some of that and you definitely have students who more interested in what we did who reached out to us and were proactive.

Leif: Pam stole my answer!  Remember to listen and be careful to see if the question they are asking is different than what they are seeing.  You need to dig in, thinking about where someone is at and what they need rather than randomly spouting information.

Mentoring students – it will be hard for them to remember what they said.  Frame things so there is a kernel that they will walk away with.  With teammates you are building a brick by brick long-time relationship, so go brick by brick.  Take the time, don’t rush it.  Often best mentoring relationships bear fruit later, not immediately.   Make the advice digestible and actionable.  Help kids understand that they can build networks and educate themselves with the skills that are necessary.

Make sure you are doing things that are fun, play a warm-up game.  Just remember to listen. I find with students it’s going to be really hard for them to remember what they said, so just try to frame things in a way that’s easy for them to walk away with and that’s easy to remember.  It’s not like with teammates; I feel like you’re building a long-term relationship and my advice there is to be patient. Take the time brick by brick. 

Pam: To add to what Leif was saying I think for the students its figuring out how to make the advice digestible and actionable.